The School of Moxie Podcast

The Last of Us is a Business Story: Finding your inner fire through Bill & Frank with Lindsey Pope

September 06, 2023 Mary Williams @sensiblewoo Season 1 Episode 6
The Last of Us is a Business Story: Finding your inner fire through Bill & Frank with Lindsey Pope
The School of Moxie Podcast
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The School of Moxie Podcast
The Last of Us is a Business Story: Finding your inner fire through Bill & Frank with Lindsey Pope
Sep 06, 2023 Season 1 Episode 6
Mary Williams @sensiblewoo

This week’s episode explores the power of collaboration, resilience, and the intrinsic motivation that keeps entrepreneurs going even when faced with adversity.

Drawing parallels between the characters in the game and real-life business scenarios, host Mary Williams and guest Lindsey Pope embark on a journey to discover how lessons from the capsule episode “Long, Long Time” with Bill & Frank can translate into tangible wisdom for entrepreneurs.

Tune in to this episode to discover how lessons from a post-apocalyptic video game like The Last of Us can reshape your entrepreneurial mindset and lead you toward building collaborative networks and thriving in the face of challenges.


Episode sponsors:

Guest information

Lindsey Pope is a holistic two pronged functional practitioner specializing in gentle Japanese acupuncture and holistic nutrition, serving clients in a full spectrum approach through these two modalities. Regardless of your symptoms, she helps you understand and trust your body's sensations while re-calibrating your relationship to living a nourishing lifestyle. Connect with Lindsey on her website and Instagram.

Show Credits

Support the Show.

I’m Mary Williams, your host and the founder of Sensible Woo. School of Moxie the podcast where we watch TV shows and movies and talk about the entrepreneurship lessons embedded in the stories. The episode archive is found here.

You can find this show wherever you listen to podcasts and all of the links to resources, guest information, and anything else we might reference in an episode are in the show notes.

We appreciate your support by subscribing and submitting a 5 star review. It helps other listeners find and share this content alongside you, our wonderful listeners.

Like and follow Sensible Woo on YouTube, Instagram, and don’t forget to subscribe to email updates at, which includes a weekly Tarot reading delivered right to your inbox.

Until next week, be sensible, be woo, and most of all, be you. 🤗

Show Notes Transcript

This week’s episode explores the power of collaboration, resilience, and the intrinsic motivation that keeps entrepreneurs going even when faced with adversity.

Drawing parallels between the characters in the game and real-life business scenarios, host Mary Williams and guest Lindsey Pope embark on a journey to discover how lessons from the capsule episode “Long, Long Time” with Bill & Frank can translate into tangible wisdom for entrepreneurs.

Tune in to this episode to discover how lessons from a post-apocalyptic video game like The Last of Us can reshape your entrepreneurial mindset and lead you toward building collaborative networks and thriving in the face of challenges.


Episode sponsors:

Guest information

Lindsey Pope is a holistic two pronged functional practitioner specializing in gentle Japanese acupuncture and holistic nutrition, serving clients in a full spectrum approach through these two modalities. Regardless of your symptoms, she helps you understand and trust your body's sensations while re-calibrating your relationship to living a nourishing lifestyle. Connect with Lindsey on her website and Instagram.

Show Credits

Support the Show.

I’m Mary Williams, your host and the founder of Sensible Woo. School of Moxie the podcast where we watch TV shows and movies and talk about the entrepreneurship lessons embedded in the stories. The episode archive is found here.

You can find this show wherever you listen to podcasts and all of the links to resources, guest information, and anything else we might reference in an episode are in the show notes.

We appreciate your support by subscribing and submitting a 5 star review. It helps other listeners find and share this content alongside you, our wonderful listeners.

Like and follow Sensible Woo on YouTube, Instagram, and don’t forget to subscribe to email updates at, which includes a weekly Tarot reading delivered right to your inbox.

Until next week, be sensible, be woo, and most of all, be you. 🤗

[00:00:00] Welcome to the School of Moxie podcast brought to you by Sensible Woo. This is the podcast where we break the mold around business podcast conversations. We make it fun around here by using television, movies, and entertainment as a jumping off point for conversations about how we navigate the world as individuals.

I'm your host, Mary Williams, and I've been an online creator since 2010. I've seen a lot of trends come and go over the years, but one thing that has persisted is a struggle among entrepreneurs to connect more authentically with their audiences. As a business systems process and operations coach, I've seen how much my clients and subscribers have benefited from learning how to incorporate their fun sides.

So we're going to demonstrate this for you here on this podcast through analogous thinking. Not only that, but we're using media and entertainment as the lens through which we reflect on our own desires and strengths. Fiction is the vehicle that gives us words to articulate our value systems and tells people who we are.

I find that a lot of my 

[00:01:00] audience, and probably yours as well, struggle to find words for their problems until they start thinking about how to use analogies. Analogies help us build bridges between something we can describe into a new area that we are in the process of developing. As humans, we are a languished species, which means we find context and meaning in our lives through the ability to put our feelings into words.

This podcast is going to help you normalize this process and see how it's done in real time as my guests talk through their own experiences in relation to the episodes they've been assigned for this show. Our first season of this podcast is centered on the first season of the HBO original series, The Last of Us, based on the video game of the same name.

Consider this your official spoiler alert.

Before we get into this week's episode, have 

[00:02:00] I told you about the weekly readings I create for entrepreneurs just like you each and every week? I am an Akashic Records and Tarot reader, and I've been giving clients intuitive guidance coaching. for just about 20 years now. That's a long time. I know that most readers out there don't focus on your business needs.

So that's where I come in. Readings with me are only about your business development, and it helps you feel more aligned with your intuitive messages so that you can incorporate those gut feelings and inner knowings into your business data for better results. Click the link in the show notes and subscribe to my weekly email updates, where you can get a free reading sent to your inbox every single week.

If you want more, you can subscribe to the weekly extended readings, which are just 9 dollars per month and help you get focused on your business energy every week. No more Sunday scaries. You've got this better in hand than you know, and I'll help you see it. Now let's get watching and talking. Episode 3 of The 

[00:03:00] Last of Us might just be one of the major favorites of anyone who's watched the first season.

It's titled “Long, Long Time,” and I swear if they don't win an Emmy for this, there is something wrong with the world. It's an LGBT love letter that fans dubbed ‘The Ballad of Bill and Frank.’ It's the episode that sparked a conservative backlash because we saw two gay men win in a fictionalized world in which everyone loses.

And it broke the common storytelling trope, which usually kills off or victimizes queer individuals. This episode is called a capsule episode because it's a tangential story branching off of the main storyline. Because of the gay themes, I couldn't have this conversation with anyone who wasn't also a queer voice.

Meet Lindsey Pope, who connected the creative dots to make this podcast happen. She asked me a critical question earlier this summer in 2023. No one had ever asked me this before. She asked, “Where does your fire come from?” And I was thinking about doing this podcast and then realized that this episode answered her question.

So we're going to talk through it in all of our 

[00:04:00] messy glory together. Lindsey provides East Asian medicine services and specializes in personalized nutrition. I can tell you that over the last 10 months, at the time of this recording, she has taken me with my health from scraping myself off the floor to a much healthier and more sustainable existence.

As an acupuncturist and nutritionist, she serves as a holistic detective to help you get to the bottom of your symptoms, listening intently and hearing your needs. Lindsey works together with you utilizing acupuncture or nutrition or by combining the two. Both offer individualized care, looking at your unique patterns and symptoms, and tailoring treatments to not only relieve your symptoms, but also to treat the root cause of those symptoms to eliminate both.

We have Kleenex on the table. There might be tears in this conversation. Honestly, I don't know if we can talk about Bill and Frank without getting super emotional. Now I'm nervous. It might be my problem. Lindsey, welcome to the show. Thank you for pushing the Kleenex to me and thank you for being one of my very first guests who is holding space for better 

[00:05:00] business conversations.

[Lindsey] Thank you for having me. 

[Mary] I'm so excited you're here. Um, we are, we were joking before we started. That's, um, in this episode, Frank totally pops Bill's cherry. And we're gonna pop your podcast cherry today. 

[Lindsey] That's right. 

[Mary] That's right with these big red microphones. These red microphones with their red windscreens on them.

Okay, so there are a number of key points in this episode. It's a beautiful episode. I mean, it's just really, really gorgeous. It's a beautiful piece of storytelling even without trying to turn it into a business analogy. It's just a great standalone piece. Um, but you had asked me, and I want to start with this.

You had asked me, where does your fire come from? And we had talked about how, well, I had described to you that I had felt that I've never felt my my fire go totally out. If it was a gas stove in the past I have felt like the main flame has gone out but the pilot light never 

[00:06:00] went out. And I always knew when I needed to self preserve because I was like, I think my pilot light is about to go out.

And the question is like, how do you make sure that the pilot light doesn't blow out? And when you asked me that question, I was noodling around on the idea for the podcast and I was like, this is answered in this episode, weirdly enough, maybe not so weirdly. And um, in this episode, you know, Bill says he was never afraid until Frank came along.

So even though Bill was well equipped to survive, he was missing an emotional connection to the world around him. And I really felt like Frank gave Bill his big why, like we talk about the big why all the time. And it turns out to be about who. Purpose is tied to who, not necessarily to why. So why or who do you do this entrepreneurial journey with and for?

[Lindsey] Yeah. Uh, it's so funny because, uh, in thinking 

[00:07:00] about the why or the who, I, I think we're often taught to think about the why. And so I, I like narrowed down into like, why do I do this? And I think my own experience with acupuncture and my own journey with nutrition and eating, um, has really propelled me into...

Like this excitement for just like how magical the human body is, but like when I think about that pilot light, like sometimes it feels like the pilot light is just a flicker, even though like it doesn't feel like I'm burnt out or like it's like even getting it going to have a fire feels like a little flicker.

And that's why I asked you because you're, we joke, like you're the A plus plus and I'm like an A minus because I have enough to go. But like that. That passion that I think you 

[00:08:00] see. With Bill trying to keep Frank alive, right? Like that, that is his passion, that is his purpose. Once they meet, it's like, I, I don't not have that, but I don't have that.

Like when I watch them have that, I'm like, Oh yeah. It's very clear. It's very like, you could put it in a box and like name it, right? 

[Mary] Yeah, literally name it. 

[Lindsey] Yeah. 

[Mary] His name is Frank. 

[Lindsey] Yeah. His name is Frank. Right. And I don't have the Frank, but like, I love helping people. Right. And so that would be the who is like, like humans.

I enjoy helping humans. But there's this, there's this curiosity that drives me to learn more like this, almost like this seeking of like, like there's so much information out there. And how do we decipher what is true and what is not true? And, and, and I think even with, with Bill, like he was closed off.

And so like deciphering what is true or not true is like Frank came along 

[00:09:00] and that's what was true. And I, I am in search of that, like that truth for myself, right? Like, like I think I relate so much to Bill from my own childhood of like growing up and like having no idea that I was gay and then like, 

[Mary] Don't we all?

[Lindsey] And then I had a Frank, right? And it was like, Oh, like, this is cool. 

[Mary] Like it makes so much sense now. 

[Lindsey] Yeah. The dots all connect. And so. In, in, like, bringing it back to entrepreneur stuff, like, I, I don't know. I just know that this is what I'm supposed to be doing. But I don't have that, like, the fire that you're talking well, maybe I have it, and I just don't see it.

[Mary] I feel like you do, and it hasn't been fully articulated. 

[Lindsey] Yeah. 

[Mary] There's so, y'all had a real hefty load of homework. I mean, I really 

[Lindsey] Yeah. 

[Mary] Dumped a 

[00:10:00] syllabus on you. 

[Lindsey] Yeah, you did. 

[Mary] And y'all were champs. 

[Lindsey] A plus plus. 

[Mary] A plus plus. And one of the things was we read a book by Susan Cain called Bittersweet and it's just sort of been running in the background of like all these conversations, but I feel like it really shows up in your conversation in particular because she does something where she articulates what melancholy and bittersweet is and all of its nuance and all of its different forms.

And I feel like that is what Bill and Frank experience.

And it's what we experience because in Susan Cain's writing, she points out that like bittersweet quality is how we actually make deeper connection with each other as humans. We don't connect over sort of that happy, happy, joy, joy. It's, you know, it's through tougher stuff. 

[Lindsey] Yeah. 

[Mary] Not performative, but like 

[Lindsey] Yeah.

[Mary] Not the shiny, happy people thing. 

[Lindsey] Yeah. 

[Mary] And I watched the fandom of this show and also the game over the years basically bond 

[00:11:00] over Bittersweet. And Ever since you asked me that question, I've also been thinking more about like the who equivalent and I really feel like deep down at its core, like the who really comes back to myself and I feel like I got to that through trauma, which nobody should really have to do, but, but it's one way to get there.

One of the thoughts I had around this is that, you know, we could consider Bill and Frank to be like multiple parts of our psyche in that metaphorical sense. So if we're looking for the pilot light and Frank is the light, then how do you keep it alive when Bill is the everyday expression of like, say, your business activities?

You know, small questions. 

[Lindsey] I, I know. I'm like, well, I'm still on the one, the point that you made earlier. Say it again. 

[Mary] The thought that I had is. That Bill and Frank actually represent multiple parts of our psyche and in the other conversations we've been having for the podcast, you know, we, we will see multiple 

[00:12:00] different scenes, different episodes where there's like multiple characters and these characters actually represent multiple parts of ourselves too.

They reflect something back to us. Bill and Frank represent sort of this duality in our, our own psyches where part of us is Frank and part of us is Bill. I personally really love Bill. 

[Lindsey] Yeah. 

[Mary] It's like, oh, I see myself in Bill real hard where I'm like, yeah, people, hard pass. 

[Lindsey] Yeah. Yep. 

[Mary] And then I also see myself in Frank where I'm like, I want the world to be really friggin beautiful, dammit.

And, and I feel like Frank represents the pilot light. He doesn't go out ever, even when he meets Bill, like, Bill's surviving, he's sort of like a campfire where you gotta go get the wood every day and like, stoke the fire. 

[Lindsey] It's interesting because I think Bill is the pilot light. 

[Mary] Really? 

[Lindsey] Because. Yeah, it's very interesting, the different, the different view.

Bill seems steady, like he was alone and he went and 

[00:13:00] got all his resources and has nice wine and makes rabbit for dinner and like has a nice barrier so that he can sleep at night and here comes Frank and Frank is all joy and wants to beautify things and like you're in a, you know, zombie apocalypse or mushroom apocalypse.

And so it's like, it's like shining the joy is like, yeah, interesting. 

[Mary] So I like this perspective a lot. And it brings up the idea that the pilot light is really more about sustainability because Bill is sustainability, you can survive, you can feed yourself, you're going to live, you're protected, ish, mostly, I mean he's got a million guns, so.

[Lindsey] And booby traps. 

[Mary] And booby traps. Excellently engineered booby traps. Yes. So I do, I do like that. I always, I was thinking that Frank was a pilot light, but I think you're right. I think 

[00:14:00] Bill is a pilot light. 

[Lindsey] He's steady. And dependable, and... 

[Mary] And you need that from a pilot light. 

[Lindsey] You do. I mean, what... Because it's not always beautiful and rainbows and like...

And that's what, I think that's what Frank gives it, right, is like, but it's not that. So what carries you through when your, when your little town is being attacked, right? It's, it's Bill already out there shooting at those, those whatever night guys and 

[Mary] The Raiders, 

[Lindsey] The Raiders. Yeah. Names are hard. Um, I'm, I'm doing good getting Bill and Frank, but yeah, I think that is the.

It's like the consistency. 

[Mary] Oh, this is, this is really good. 

[Lindsey] Threw you  a curveball. 

[Mary] It's a good curveball. Okay, so if Bill's the pilot light. And if we're talking about maintaining our feeling of purpose as like a fire and not letting the fire 

[00:15:00] go out, and we know we need to maintain a pilot light, how then Bill reflects back qualities that are necessary.

[Lindsey] Well, now that you're saying it back to me, I'm like, but maybe Frank is your pilot light. Like this is 

[Mary] Like maybe it's personal? 

[Lindsey] Yeah. Like, like maybe some people have a little bit of both and, and. But like, what, what drives you, right? Because the pilot light is the thing that's going to stay on or you need to stay on no matter what, right?

And so, like, everyone's going to have their own light. And so maybe yours is... 

[Mary] Maybe it's Frank. 

[Lindsey] Maybe you're Frank. I like that. Individualized. 

[Mary] Individualized pilot light. 

[Lindsey] Yeah. Well, even, I mean, even in Chinese medicine, right? Like, you have the fire, like, above the kidneys. That's like... your essence. And you get some from your parents, but you also like, as far as a lifestyle goes, like you, you can 

[00:16:00] keep it going, you can nourish it, right?

Or you can totally drain it. And I think what we choose to do and what is going to nourish us is going to be different for each person. And so, yeah, maybe the consistency and the survival. And the guns and the bunker and the booby traps are some people's pilot light. I don't know. 

[Mary] It's the thing you need the most, like I have no problem invoking Bill.

Yeah. I used to own a house in Texas. I had this vision for it because I was convinced that an apocalypse was coming and I was gonna like have the solar powered like home because I had this great roof and like all the things right. And, um, thank God I didn't live out that life. And I always wondered like.

When our COVID pandemic hit, I would have been isolated an hour outside of Austin in the country, and I would have been living that existence. And it wasn't scary to me to think of that. But Frank wanting to make everything beautiful 

[00:17:00] is like a sustain, that actually has like a sustainability feeling for me.

And so I wonder if like, because you and I tend to be very like yin yang opposite on things. And I think that's why we're really good friends. And maybe because the sustainability piece with Bill is what you need or crave more that's why he has to be your, your pilot light. 

[Lindsey] Maybe, maybe my own little wounded self just needs a bunker and a bunch of guns to keep going.

[Mary] I mean, it's very craftily constructed. 

[Lindsey] Yeah. Yeah. Very skilled and walled off and sometimes I do like the communication bit right like we've talked about is like finding the words to say finding the words to write like maybe I'm having this aha moment of like being walled off right like I am like Bill.

Yeah, I have my guns get the fuck out. Can I say fuck? 

[Mary] Yes, 

[Lindsey] Okay. 

[Mary] I'm wearing. Oh, I put my sweatshirt on but 

[00:18:00] it says swearing helps. 

[Lindsey] Yeah. Yeah, like maybe maybe that is like you know, a form of, of safety and protection, which is an illusion. 

[Mary] It is an illusion because like we even see it in the storyline, you know, we get that flashback of Joel and Tess coming to visit and, you know, Tess and Frank hit it off and developed this whole, like, system of communication through the music.

And Joel's pretty frank with Bill where he's like, you know, you need to fortify your fence. Like, if you're going to live like this, like, there are things you need and I'll help you get them and I'll scratch your back, you scratch mine. And the whole episode showed so much of like, you just, you can't do things alone, you know?

And I feel like when we talk about our big why in business. So much of it has to come also from who, because you can't do it alone. Like Bill, yes, Bill is very successful surviving on his 

[00:19:00] own. The dude's got a system. 

[Lindsey] Oh yeah. 

[Mary] We all should wish to be Bill in an apocalypse. 

[Lindsey] That's real. Or at least have a Bill.

[Mary] Or have a Bill, which Frank does find. And, but in the end, like, it turns out that Bill really does need Frank because like the years tick on. And like, I mean, boredom alone aside, there, sometimes you need somebody else to help with things. And honestly, Bill would never have made the connection to Tess and Joel if it hadn't been for Frank.

Frank's the one who initiated it. He was on the radio chatting with Tess. Trading a little gun for strawberry seeds, you know? And in those little things that bring you joy in life, that give you the happy memories, you know, by the end, Bill's like, I'm satisfied. Had a really good life. I don't think he would have had that if not for the who.

[Lindsey] Yeah. In community, think about like in my 

[00:20:00] own journey, post pandemic, I had to come out and I met you through networking and that has opened a ton of doors and also just like feeling not alone in the entrepreneur journey and it's, you know, I work in an office alone. I spend a lot of time alone, but I do like this image is coming to mind of when Bill

and Joel first meet and Bill has his gun and I feel like that's how I approach like I maybe don't have a gun but like I don't really trust you I hear you saying that I need to send weekly newsletters but I don't quite trust you yet right and like I have my little gun there but it it is it has been I feel like I have more joy within the business and doing the business stuff

having community and I think that's what that's what we see and that support of like I have fence you have gun right and it's like 

[00:21:00] I have needles you have systems. Yeah, right and it's it's like being able to like offer what we have to support each other.

[Mary] Yeah. Oh, I'm seeing that scene in my head, too, where they're having lunch.

Yeah. And Joel's like, get that fucking gun out of my face. I'm like, Lindsey, send newsletters. Get that fucking gun out of my face. 

[Lindsey] That is exactly what you should picture. 

[Mary] I appreciate you so much being willing to like have this conversation because I don't think you're alone in, um, trying to figure this out.

I think there's a lot of entrepreneurs who don't ever vocalize this and they struggle to figure it out. So they like enroll in one more program after another. Another crap thing after another that is never going to address the root issue, which is like we need to, like, openly talk about, like, where does purpose come from?

[Lindsey] Yeah. 

[Mary] And 

[00:22:00] there are certain things where the motivating factors that fire runs out after a while, like for, for entrepreneurs, you know, like to have things only based on how much money you're making. While fun, is it, it does, does run like, does hit like a certain ceiling, like a limit. And I feel like with Bill, like he hit that ceiling limit by the time Frank falls into one of his booby trap holes and, and, and he knows it 'cause there's no way he would let him into the house

if he wasn't at that point. 

[Lindsey] Do you think he knew it or do you think he was like, like that, like, right, that, that, that other knowing. 

[Mary] I think both. 

[Lindsey] Because in his letter in the very end, he was like, he was like done with humans. He was like, glad that all the humans were dying. 

[Mary] Yeah. 

[Lindsey] And then he met Frank. And in, 

[00:23:00] in my mind, like, Frank is obviously gay.

And so, 

[Mary] I love how you texted me. It was like a play by play. Watching you watch this. 

[Lindsey] The excitement. 

[Mary] You were like, I knew he was gay. 

[Lindsey] Yeah. Well, and then Bill, I knew Bill was gay, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think the light goes off for Bill. I don't think he knew he needed it. And I may be going against the directors there because I know that there was like the, the podcast about the episode or whatever, but, but I don't know, like, I'm like, I don't know if he knew he needed it until he met Frank and then it was like, oh, I needed it.

[Mary] Oh no, that's exactly how they frame it too. They describe it as like Frank meets Bill and immediately is like, oh, I see you because Frank's out. He knows. And for Bill, it's just like, oh wait, I'm allowed. I'm allowed to. You know, maybe want more than just 

[00:24:00] excellent wine reduction sauces, but also to want, you know, like a really truly a whole and complete life.

And I think that's, you know, what we seek as entrepreneurs. Like, I see a lot of people chase sort of those like number money markers, like this number revenue or this number profit, this number subscribers or followers. And it's like, okay, there are numbers. Numbers are great. That's like Bill having X number of guns.

X number of cans of whatever, you know, um, heat on, gas on, water on, you know, like electricity on. Got it. 

[Lindsey] Yep. 

[Mary] Thumbs up. 

[Lindsey] Yep. 

[Mary] And then it's like, okay, so on the surface you have all, all the trappings of like a very fine sustainable life, but like we're humans, we feel things. There's also a happiness factor 

[00:25:00] and it's clearly missing.

[Lindsey] Yeah. I think I was gonna say like I imagine that those businesses don't succeed, but I don't know that that's, I have no factual data to back that up. 

[Mary] I see enough of it that they, uh, you see that if they're big enough, you'll see them do very smart marketing moves where they. Pivot. Into different things.

Plenty of us pivot into things, but I've seen some pretty big coaching practices lately and they're like going from one thing to like from apples to oranges and it's just like, oh, something burned out there. 

[Lindsey] I think that's when Frank is in the house and he dusts the mantle and he has that moment of like, Oh, I can make this beautiful.

That's the pivot, right? Like that's, that's also like Frank's purpose, right? Is to like beautify things and to bring joy and light. And I think 

[00:26:00] that is when, when you pivot is you see what the market needs or like, like, you know, from, um, my standpoint, like, you see where I believe, and then from market research, like, what is needed in the community, and then you go in that direction.

I think you have to be willing, as entrepreneurs, to pivot. 

[Mary] Yes. Yeah. And you have to be willing to combine forces. 

[Lindsey] Yes. 

[Mary] Like, for all of Frank's ability to paint well, clean a house, be the domestic god, he's a horrible piano player. 

[Lindsey] Yeah. 

[Mary] But Bill has that skill. 

[Lindsey] I know. Yeah. 

[Mary] Yeah. So, like, I, yeah. I think there's something really gorgeous in that, um, kind of following along with Frank.

You know, we're also talking about like how we create beauty and connection. You could call it healing in a world that constantly eats away at your progress. And my thought was that apocalypse 

[00:27:00] or not, the world will chip away at the beauty that you put in it. And Frank challenges Bill to make things beautiful, not just functional.

So to live a beautiful life then would be a healing action. So how do you build beauty into your business if you think of it that way? And then my question was, are you Frank? Or do you need a collaborator to be your Frank? 

[Lindsey] Definitely need a collaborator. 

[Mary] So you are Bill. Bill is your pilot light. 

[Lindsey] I think, yeah.

I mean, I think I'm a little bit of both. But it's a stretch to be Frank. If I think about, like, the, not the joy aspect, but I can get just down to, like, the brass tacks. Like, just like the details. And I can get lost in the details. And sometimes I need to come up for air. And that is, that is through connecting with others and supporting other, other people who, you 

[00:28:00] know, my wheelhouse is not, you know, beautifying necessarily like making art, anything like that.

And so being able to connect with other businesses who like, yes, in health, there is beauty, right? Like, like helping people get healthy, seeing their light come on, right? Like, there is absolute beauty in that. Um, but going back to your point before, like, we can't do it alone. 

[Mary] No, and the world really chips away at the progress you make.

[Lindsey] Does it? 

[Mary] I feel like it wants to. Because I also feel like I watch Bill recognize this. And to sort of like maintain along with the slow degradation of building structures and roadways and whatever. And meanwhile, Frank is trading little guns for strawberries and, 

[00:29:00] um, wants to allocate resources, which honestly are precious for survival, into improving

the feeling of being in that space every day. You know, and I think about like this increasing push. That we have in all of our business discussions around like self care and like, you know, take care of yourself. And I mean, you see it too as a healer in the healing space. People spending money that's not necessarily covered by insurance, raising my hand, to, to improve

your life's quality, like that would be the equivalent of, you know, allocating the gas that could go in the generator to mowing the lawn that is next door, which is not your lawn. 

[Lindsey] Yeah. 

[Mary] And, and yet we really need it. 

[Lindsey] Yeah, it's like the strawberries. Like, when they eat the strawberries 

[00:30:00] and it's just, like, the taste of the strawberry is so delicious.

Like, I think holding on to, holding on to that, like, the, the gratitude of it, even though it costs like a tiny gun, right? It's like, but the, the taste of the strawberry, the, the moment they're sitting with your love eating a strawberry for the first time in a long time, it's like, that's, that's how you, like, that, that is what you hold on to.

[Mary] Pardon the pun. Juicy. I wanted to say, oh, that's juicy. I was like, oh, that's the worst timing for that pun right now. 

[Lindsey] I was waiting on something. I was like, something's going on over there. 

[Mary] In my weird brain. I feel like there are, you know, okay, just coming back to this whole, like, you can't do it alone thing, you know, I'm thinking about, like, the way the physical world is degrading around Bill, you 

[00:31:00] know, the way Joel offers him, like, I can get you high tensile aluminum for your fence, like, that there is already, like, corroded.

And it really doesn't cost Bill much, if anything, if anything he's gaining by collaborating with a couple of smugglers. And clearly in the end, we noticed that they really did gain. And I wonder how many of us as entrepreneurs don’t realize how much we're resisting easy gains. Because we keep saying no to people. Like, no, I got it.

I can do it. I don't need that. And we don't heed the warning. Joel's like, Listen, raiders one day are going to come. 

[Lindsey] Yeah. 

[Mary] I've seen it. I know it. I exist in that world. 

[Lindsey] Yeah. 

[Mary] And like, Dude, you better like be prepared. And then one day they do. And I feel like that happens in our business world where, you know, one of us comes along, whether you as a health practitioner, tell somebody.

Do some of this preventative care now 

[00:32:00] so that you don't end up with that horrible ailment later. Or me as a systems coach, like, do the unglamorous work now of fixing your operations in the back end or the fence is going to come down. And we see that happen to Bill and Frank. And it almost ends Bill because he's out there shooting back like an idiot.

And the first thing he does in that moment, I feel like that's where things really change because he's. He tells Frank, he's like, call Joel, you have to call Joel, you know, part of that is his like the purpose thing where he's like, you're my purpose, like I need to protect you and what if I'm not here because this bullet kills me and like you need to call Joel, but also like, oh shit, we can't do this alone, like ever.

[Lindsey] Yeah, I've, I've resisted the collaborations with others for a long time. 

[00:33:00] I don't know if that makes sense, but yeah, I have resisted humans. For a long time and yeah, it's like the phrase that keeps coming to mind is like a rising tide lifts all boats. It's like by Joel helping Bill, Bill in turn helps Joel, and then both, well, technically Bill doesn't, Bill dies, but, spoiler, spoiler if you haven't watched it, uh, but it helps Joel, right, take Ellie, and so I think, 

[Mary] Their abundance is the gift that gives later, and he waits for him.

Well, he knows that Joel would be the only one who would come, so he's like, take whatever you need, basically. I thought that was so beautiful. 

[Lindsey] Yeah. Yeah. And I think that there's a level, I don't know if this is true for you, but there's a level of trust that comes where I do have the pilot light, and I feel called to do what I'm doing.

And I trust that. And 

[00:34:00] then there seems to be this. This way that when I do say yes to things with that like check in, but like, like doing this podcast, a little uncomfortable, right? But like, is it a reasonable ask? Yes. Is it kind of fun? Yes. Is it terrifying? Yes. Checks all of those boxes and I'm showing up and pushing my own growth edge, but also supporting you in the process.

[Mary] Yes. 

[Lindsey] And that's what I mean by like the rising tide lifts all boats. Like whether, whether anything comes of it. We still are having fun on a Saturday afternoon talking about business, which we do. 

[Mary] Thank you to our one listener. 

[Lindsey] Yeah. Thanks Chris. 

[Mary] Thanks, Chris. 

[Lindsey] Our one listener's already here. The work is done, but it is like, like that, that too is like, you know, I hear people say that a lot.

Like if, if you just help one person or if the message that you're sending reaches one person, then you've done what you were 

[00:35:00] put here to do and like 

[Mary] Yeah. Ooh. It's like. If it is like the one person, that means that Frank helped his one person, Bill helped his one person. 

[Lindsey] Yeah. And in that helped a lot of other people.

I mean. 

[Mary] Yeah. 

[Lindsey] You know, Joel kind of shit the bed in the end, so didn't really help a lot of people if that was going to be. Right. 

[Mary] I mean, it's debatable if they could ever distribute a vaccine or if it would ever be made. 

[Lindsey] Not my episode. But right. Like still, like it's like a ripple effect when we get out of our own box, our own armor.

[Mary] But I mean, when you think about the ripple effect that Bill and Frank had, it's actually quite large because if you really nerd out on the whole world that gets built. here. Um, we know that Joel and Tess have a smuggling operation. And like in the very 

[00:36:00] first episode, we see Joel selling narcotics to like one of the officers or whatever.

And he says, Oh, I get them from my guy. And later on you realize, Oh, he gets them from Bill. So Bill gets them from somebody in Atlanta. And who are they? 

[Lindsey] Oh, wow. You went down a deep dive. I did not know that. 

[Mary] Yes. This is where my brain goes. When I'm working alone in my home office. 

[Lindsey] Collaborating was happening.

[Mary] Collaborating was happening. And And, you know, and it's clear that Joel and Tess are not the only smugglers because once they get out of the QZ and they're eating breakfast at one day and Ellie has a chicken sandwich and she's like, well, Marlene gets the chicken from some smugglers, guess they weren't you.

You know, and I, I laughed so hard at that. And I was like, yeah, Joel and Tess have been smuggling the wrong thing. They should have been smuggling chickens. But, but you realize that there's. A lot of people 

[00:37:00] actually like a really wide network if you think about it in that world. 

[Lindsey] Yeah. Yeah. And also just like think and thinking about the QZs or like the, the

break off villages that they come to along the way, it's like, and what does staying in your like small little like survival of the fittest. Right. We will shoot you if you enter or eat you. Um, like, you know, like, what does that serve? Like, like you, you kind of just see it like transform in this way of like, Oh, this is mine.

You know? 

[Mary] Yeah. 

[Lindsey] I think that happens in business too, especially. 

[Mary] Yes. So, we see entrepreneurs do this all the time because we see people hoard their assets, whether it's their networking list, or their client list, or their, even the reach that they have to their audiences, 

[00:38:00] and they are really poor collaborators.

[Lindsey] Yeah, it's, I, I don't, I've been focused a lot lately on scarcity and abundance mindset, which we've probably talked a lot about. But like, that scarcity mindset, right, of like, I have to hang on to it because it's gonna go away, or like, I'm never gonna get it back, and this like, fear, right? And the show really shows that, like, that.

[Mary] I think so, too. 

[Lindsey] That fear of like, Well, this is mine and I must hang on to it because I'm never going to get it, which they're not wrong. 

[Mary] No, in their world, like manufacturing is pretty much done. Done. Yeah. At least for the time being. Yeah. But it's done. Yeah. Except in Jackson, where they have a dam powering electricity.

[Lindsey] Yeah. 

[Mary] Go team. 

[Lindsey] They have a whole little village. 

[Mary] I think it would be so interesting for entrepreneurs. Do this thought experiment with us who watch the show or maybe already have and then start thinking about it in context of business. Start to recognize that like when you watch the fictionalized story, these people went through a 

[00:39:00] really traumatic pandemic, way more traumatic than our, makes our little itty bitty COVID look itty bitty and not to diminish it, but you can watch in this fictionalized story with all the heightened emotions.

Something reflected back, which is like, how much are you, or the communities that you're in, hoarding materials or collaborating really well? You know, how much are we operating in these survival mentalities when it's like, do we really need to? 

[Lindsey] Yeah. 

[Mary] Do we really have to? Because I don't know that we have to.

Yeah. And like, I get, I get the natural. Sort of psychological, emotional reaction to the pandemic we did go through because yeah that was disruptive and that was emotionally taxing. But also like right now we're 

[00:40:00] having recession fears and so people go into this like survival state and in the story of The Last of Us like they were actually in a survival state.

And I'm like but we have so much abundance around us. It's like. Why do we have to batten down the hatches like that, you know, why can't we continue to grow? Where does this fear really come from? Because then it takes away, then that starts blowing out the, the fire, it starts removing the light.

[LIndsey] Exhausting, right? Yeah. I wonder if it is a, like a primal survival skill, even though we're not in an apocalypse, like coming out of a pandemic and possibly heading towards a recession, like. But even before, even before I think, I will say too, like the circles I run in aren't aren't that a lot of the times, uh, there's a lot of people sharing time and sharing resources and trading services to help each 

[00:41:00] other out.

And maybe it's just about finding your tribe, like finding your people that that you believe in that believe in you. And sharing, you know, resources that way because that's, that's kind of what they were doing, right? Like, like, Bill and Frank trusted Tess and Joel. It was earned. But, right? Like, and so they're not sharing their resources with everyone.

Some people pay for those resources. But like, do you know what I mean? Does that make sense? 

[Mary] But I also feel like even though Tess and Joel earned trust, especially from Bill, because Frank is definitely more trusting. 

[Lindsey] Yeah. Frank was just like, yeah. 

[Mary] Frank's like a puppy. He's like, I love everybody. I do feel like there's still this letting go moment because Frank and Tess demonstrate it, you know, and it happens, like you get to see it.

Well, the first thing that happens is you discover they're talking over the radio. Because Frank and 

[00:42:00] Bill have their argument, and he's like, you've been talking to who? He's like, she's really nice. We're gonna have friends. And then, and then you see them come over, and they're eating, and it's such a normal activity to do in a world where that has just been like obliterated.

Except Bill regularly eats like this. Which is awesome. And they're trying to keep it within this business context, but Frank and Tess immediately are like, no, like, you want to come inside? You want to see the things, you know, and they drop the, the fear of like all the what ifs. And they're just like.

Let's just be friends, like let's just do this, let's be each other's people, and they've already figured out a system of communication by the time they're leaving. I mean like, I feel like that is how real networks are grown, and there are some people who do it naturally really well. 

[00:43:00] They are the Tesses and the Franks in the world.

And then there are people who really have walls up, and Bill and Joel are excellent examples of that. But Bill and Joel also show us that, like, you cannot do it alone. Yeah. And, like, Ellie saves Joel's life a whole bunch of times. And throughout the whole thing. And so even though he can be, you know, alpha daddy or whatever, he still needs help.

In a previous conversation, Megan was on the mic and we were talking about Tess and how Tess manages to demonstrate, like, she knows how to put down her ego. She's such a great entrepreneur in that world and I was so sad that she died so early. And she knows how to put that, whether, I don't know, I don't know if it's pride.

I don't know if it's a, or you call it defense mechanism, Joel and Bill have them like way 

[00:44:00] up. And it's funny cause Tess and Frank have them way down and they know how to basically control their partners. What is that thing that they, that they drop? Because I feel like that is a contributing factor to that original question of like, where does the fire come from?

It's sort of like when you build a campfire, you need air for. a fire to grow. And it’s air. 

[Lindsey] What, what do you mean it's air? 

[Mary] Like that, that it's, it's not a selflessness. I don't believe that it's selflessness from Tess or Frank, but there is a dropping of the ego. There is this, it's a maturity, um. 

[Lindsey] Is it though?

[Mary] I don't know. 

[Lindsey] Cause it's like, it's like a difference in personality. It is a different, yes. And you can definitely see. Bill and Joel's walls. And their, like, protector mentality. But, 

[00:45:00] I think that comes from, like, I mean, Bill, even before it all happened, had his bunker and his guns built. Or his bunker built and his guns stashed away, right?

Like, he was already that guy. So, what happened before, and then the same, like, with Joel, we see in the very first, episode that I could barely make it through. 

[Mary] Oh, Granny. She got you good. 

[Lindsey] Granny just got me. Um, but like, he loses his daughter, you know? And like, Um, those walls are there for safety and for protection.

And as someone who relates to Bill, I think part of the work and you know, I always say like the entrepreneur journey parallels personal life. And so the work is like, Oh, what are these walls? Where do I feel safe? Who do I trust to open up to? And then slowly those walls can maybe come down. Whereas like, Frank and Tess, it seems like their personality, like they, they're already there in 

[00:46:00] whatever way.

That it's, it's not forced. It's, and I, I don't think it's absent of ego. I think it's just a different way of relating to the world, a different way of being. 

[Mary] It kind of makes me think that if you have one set of qualities and somebody has another set of qualities 

[Lindsey] You should be business partners. 

[Mary] Yeah.

You should really, should. They're like polarities of a magnet. You need both. 

[Lindsey] Yeah, you do. Yeah. It's the yin and the yang. It's the balance. We, we need balance and that's why the four of them work because of the balance. 

[Mary] Yeah. It's so good. I, you know, I had written down this question and we've already been talking about it, but I'm like wondering how can we bring more of this kind of magic, that collaborative magic into our regular entrepreneurial journeys?

You know, and it was funny because that question came out of remembering a quote where Joel and Ellie are 

[00:47:00] walking and they're, they get to Cumberland Farms. He's like, you asked a lot of goddamn questions. 

[Lindsey] I get told that a lot too. 

[Mary] And she's just, she's just yammering away question after question. And she, in that whole, like, first part of that episode...

Really highlights for us, demonstrates for us how much Joel is not alone anymore. 

[Lindsey] Yeah. 

[Mary] And he's not going to be alone for quite some time because this little chatterbox is just going to ask him question after question after question and she's going to keep going. And, and it's like, I think that we have, like, Ellies in our lives who do that for us.

[Lindsey] Mm hmm. It's curiosity. I love it. It is. I, I, I'm a very curious person. I, I asked a lot of questions. I, I am that person. I am Ellie. But I like to ask the questions and not be asked the questions so I could also see myself as Joel. 

[Mary] Ha ha ha ha ha ha. 

[Lindsey] But I think that in, in your 

[00:48:00] point, initially of like, how do we collaborate and connect with people, it is being curious about them, about not only their business, but who are they behind the scenes, who are they running their business, and then like seeing like, oh, is this someone that I genuinely want to collaborate with, or when I have clients come in, I'm like, oh, like, they would be great for collaborating with them.

Mary, they need system support, or like, they would be great for this part, like, right? Like, knowing, genuinely taking the time and the effort to know who someone is, and not just what they present, but like, who they are, then the network, kind of like the Cordyceps, grows, right? Because like, like everyone is connected, and then we make those connections, versus it just being like, the me or the I, it's like.

It truly is the we. 

[Mary] Yeah. Oh my goodness. The whole thing. I'm gonna try to bring this all full circle. But the 

[00:49:00] whole thing, purpose. All purpose comes down to network. Whatever the network is, it could be Cordyceps, that is a network. You know, later on when we meet David. And he says, the Cordyceps loves. 

[Lindsey] Which one was David?

[Mary] The religious cult leader. 

[Lindsey] Oh God, I blocked that out. 

[Mary] But he gives Ellie that speech, and that's a beautiful monologue, too, actually, it's like my second favorite monologue in the whole thing. And he's like, it loves. The infection loves because it protects its own. It continues to spread. It does what it needs to do to survive and, and like that's a network.

And then we've got this network of ham radio operators, that's a network. We've got a network of smugglers. We've got a network of like, even just sort of localized within the QZ, like they've got their own little cultures going on. You've got your like, Fireflies are like a whole network. Yeah. I mean.

[Lindsey] It's about finding your tribe. 

[Mary] You have to find your, your, your group. Yeah. You have to find that network. 

[Lindsey] Yep. Mm 

[00:50:00] hmm. Yeah. I mean, that sums it up. Find your tribe. 

[Mary] Damn. I'm so glad we had this conversation. 

[Lindsey] Same. Yeah. Super helpful. Super insightful for myself, too. 

[Mary] Well, thank you for being willing to think aloud on the microphone, because when you asked me that, and we were trading voice notes back and forth, it helped kick all of these discussions off, but also I was like, you are not alone in that question and I am not alone in the subsequent questions that came after and I was like, somebody out there is going to want to have context and get something out of hearing a couple people really reason through some.

anchoring point into not letting their own fire burn out because there are a lot of people who are really tired right now and they're, they are making changes and pivots or whatever you want to call them, but you can't let the pilot light go out. Like, I don't think that ever changes. 

[Lindsey] You don't think letting the pilot light go out changes?

[Mary] No. I feel like you 

[00:51:00] can change like your stove. You can change what kind of, you know, cooktop you have, but like, that would be like the type of business you do or whatever, but, The pilot light is intrinsic to you? 

[Lindsey] Yes, agreed. The pilot light is within, it has nothing to do with like business. There's like the business part, but there's 

relationships and life, spirituality, whatever your things are, right? Like, yeah, like there's a pilot light within all of it, which is, which is you. And me, and Chris over here has a pilot light too. 

[Mary] He does. 

[Lindsey] Yeah. Right? But it is that, like, it is not our business. We are not our business.

It is just part of us. 

[Mary] Oh, so good. Okay, I'm going to ask you the question I'm asking everybody. What does The Last of Us reflect back to you about yourself? 

[Lindsey] Well, I want to change my answer. My, my initial thought is perseverance, right? The will to live, the will to 

[00:52:00] keep going. But after our conversation, I'm like, Oh, but this fenced in wall stuff, like, now I'm like, seeing it from a whole new Bill perspective of...

Like, wanting to let those balls down a little bit, but I still, I come back to perseverance. I think watching everyone's will to adapt and grow and shift, pivot, I love the word pivot. Um, I think that's, that's really the message and like the take home for me. is like you just, you just keep going.

[Mary] Just keep going.

[Lindsey] But then on the other hand, which I feel like a walking contradiction and on the other hand, you have to know when to let go, but you just keep going even if you're letting go, which is a whole other topic that 

[Mary] I actually feel like that theme 

[00:53:00] shows up by the time we get to the end because people let go of all kinds of things.

They let go of what they thought would happen. I mean, they let go of what they think Ellie is in terms of humanity's savior, you know. Um, Tommy's let go of what he thought life had to be like to adopt a whole new one. I mean, people let go of things and then they continue on stronger. So, I, I, I do think you're onto something there.

[Lindsey] Yeah. I think sometimes there's. As far as like the entrepreneur thing is like there, there can be like shame or like, like, in quote, like failure attached to if you do have to pivot or like you put the thing out there and it doesn't work or your business bombs, right? Or your idea bombs, you get fired from your job, even if you're not an entrepreneur, there's like this failure.

Whereas the mindset shift around. It's not being a failure, it's just a pivot. It's just a moment to grow and to expand into something else, 

[00:54:00] which is what you're describing in all of, all of their actions. It's like the life presented itself and then they... Pivot. I love the word pivot. 

[Mary] I'm glad you do because a lot of people hated it after COVID.

[Lindsey] Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. No. I enjoy the word. It's a Friends episode. 

[Mary] Oh my God. Ross and his sofa. 

[Lindsey] Yeah. I just can't. 

[Mary] So good. Oh, I'm so glad we got to talk. I would probably talk about this episode with you for like four more hours, but. We are going to pick this up again another day at another time.

I'm sure this will not be the first time you get on the mic. 

[Lindsey] The last time. 

[Mary] It will not be the last time. The last time. I said the first time. It is the first time. It is the first. Well, you've already done your first, so there's no more first. 

[Lindsey] Great. It's passed. 

[Mary] I hope you had a good time. Thank you so much for coming onto the mic.


[Lindsey} Thanks for having me. I love chatting with you. 

[Mary] Me too. 


[Lindsey] And I love how your brain works to even, when I saw the, your ideas around this, I was just like, Oh wow. I never even would have. In a billion years, thought this way about it. And I just really appreciate how your mind works and including me in your, your podcast adventures.

[Mary] Oh, thanks, friend. 

This has been the official School of Moxie podcast with your host, Mary Williams and special guest, Lindsey Pope. The show is written and produced by Mary Williams. Chris Martin from Chris Martin Studios is our editor and the sound engineer for this episode. The episode was recorded in Vancouver, Washington at the CoLab Coworking Center.

I'm Mary Williams, your host and the founder of Sensible Woo. You can watch the HBO original series The Last of Us on As a librarian, I will always encourage you to check out the companion book Bittersweet by Susan Cain at your local library. You can find this show wherever you listen to podcasts and all of the links to resources 

[00:56:00] guest information, and anything else we might reference in an episode are in the show notes.

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Until next week, be sensible, be woo, and most of all, be you.